Eiri, are you actually pro-life?

EiriForLife · Posts: 173 Join date: 2008-07-21

In response to Erulissë:

"I'm just not" refers to "I am just not capable of approving of every single abortion".

And of course there's an exception to everything, but I was talking about an ELECTIVE abortion being done during birth. Who knows why? "This hurts too much, kill it?"

We are allowed to make laws that say killing born humans is bad. We make that call for other people. I understand that the situation of pregnancy is unique, but I don't think that just because the fetus is dependent on the woman's body to survive gives her the right to kill it at any time, aside from the exceptions.

When you make a mistake and make the wrong choice, someone else doesn't normally die. If another human does die, then it often goes to court. I do NOT approve of arresting women who abort, I'm just trying to say that this is a very serious "mistake" to make.

I would have asked why you don't want to be pregnant.

EiriForLife · Posts: 173 Join date: 2008-07-21

futureshock wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

If a woman comes into a clinic hell bent on getting an abortion, and I were assigned as her initial case-worker-therapist-counselor-whatever, I guess I'd ask my required questions, which would include "why" and I would not take "I don't have to tell you" as an answer - I believe women do need to have a reason they're not embarrassed to talk about. If she were absolutely adamant, I'd sign her through... But ANY hesitation and I'd make her consult with a doctor and psychologist. I believe that unless a woman is 100% confident that the procedure is right for her and she is ok with killing another human being, then abortion is not the right choice. Many women don't regret the procedure right away, but as they get older, see friends with children, and hit menopause, they often change their minds.

Not true. You have an idea in your head about who gets abortions and why that is just wrong.

The most common aborions are often done by married women who already have one child. I already knew that. My "view of women who abort" is not skewed. In those cases, killing your child just because you can't afford another one isn't a good enough excuse, because there is always adoption, and then NO one has to die. If it is dangerous for you to carry (more than normal pregnancy) and it would cause you to leave your own children motherless then that IS an excuse to abort.

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And the older I get, the more PRO-CHOICE I become, especially since I have a daughter. The idea that someone else will take control of her body away from her enrages me. Over my dead body will I allow that to happen.

But you're ok with your grandchild dying?

futureshock · Posts: 618 Join date: 2008-03-10

EiriForLife wrote:

In response to Erulissë:

"I'm just not" refers to "I am just not capable of approving of every single abortion".

I don't understand why you feel you would need to be approving of every single abortion in order to be pro-choice? You only need to approve of what you do with your own body.

Quote:

And of course there's an exception to everything, but I was talking about an ELECTIVE abortion being done during birth. Who knows why? "This hurts too much, kill it?"

As I have previously stated, The Roe Supreme Court decision makes that illegal already. Pro-choice means defending Roe, so being against elective post viability abortions still means you are pro-choice. Being pro-life WILL NOT EFFECT these procedures as they are already illegal.

Quote:

We are allowed to make laws that say killing born humans is bad. We make that call for other people. I understand that the situation of pregnancy is unique, but I don't think that just because the fetus is dependent on the woman's body to survive gives her the right to kill it at any time, aside from the exceptions.

*le sigh*
This is NOT what Roe says. This is pro-life propaganda.

Quote:

When you make a mistake and make the wrong choice, someone else doesn't normally die. If another human does die, then it often goes to court. I do NOT approve of arresting women who abort, I'm just trying to say that this is a very serious "mistake" to make.

I'm lost here.

Quote:

I would have asked why you don't want to be pregnant.

I have been pregnant and had a child. I would no want to go through that ever, ever again. The pregnancy was full of debilitating nausea and vomiting to the point where my husband had to take a leave from work to care for me, as I was bedridden. I was rushed to the hospital several times because my intestines were blocked.

The birth part was more agony than I could have ever imagined. The contractions felt like people were twisting my intestines an uterus and then puling tug of war style as hard as they could. The delivery part felt like someone put a long, sharp, cerated knife inside my vagina, sharp side pointed up, and then ripped me apart by slicing the sharp part up through my abdomen.

And I was in one of the best hospitals in the U.S., with multiple anesthesiologists attending.

One was in tears.

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EiriForLife · Posts: 173 Join date: 2008-07-21

Erulissë wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Maz wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Maz wrote:

Quote:

Right now, a woman doesn't have to tell anyone why she's aborting, it's a completely confidential operation.

So who else do you think should be told?

The doctor and a psychiatrist. It should be in her record just like any other procedure is. If abortion isn't "bad"... then why is it hidden so much?

I wasn't aware that abortions were erased from women's medical records. They certainly aren't in the UK.

They aren't erased. I didn't say that. But I have heard of cases where it's simply not mentioned at all, or falsified as a miscarriage because the woman is too ashamed of having gotten an abortion.

why should it be in her med records?

with the climate of people andeverything now, i wouldn't blame a woman for not wanting to share that with justanyone. alot of people hate and label and judge.

Your medical record is confidential and ANY procedure you have done should be in there, especially one as serious as an abortion.

EiriForLife · Posts: 173 Join date: 2008-07-21

futureshock wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

In response to Erulissë:
"I'm just not" refers to "I am just not capable of approving of every single abortion".

I don't understand why you feel you would need to be approving of every single abortion in order to be pro-choice? You only need to approve of what you do with your own body.

Because that's the basis of pro-choice: You don't care what anyone else does with their body. And if the fetus had an input, then it wouldn't be a problem. But right now, women have the right to kill another human being, to destroy that human's body, without their permission.

Quote:

And of course there's an exception to everything, but I was talking about an ELECTIVE abortion being done during birth. Who knows why? "This hurts too much, kill it?"

As I have previously stated, The Roe Supreme Court decision makes that illegal already.

It is a pro-choice argument I have heard, I'm not making this up.

Quote:

We are allowed to make laws that say killing born humans is bad. We make that call for other people. I understand that the situation of pregnancy is unique, but I don't think that just because the fetus is dependent on the woman's body to survive gives her the right to kill it at any time, aside from the exceptions.

*le sigh*
This is NOT what Roe says. This is pro-life propaganda.

Are you kidding? I've heard the above argument straight from pro-choicers: "Abortion (pro-choice) is all about the woman's right to control her body. She has the right to kill the unborn because it is inside of her and attached to her."

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When you make a mistake and make the wrong choice, someone else doesn't normally die. If another human does die, then it often goes to court. I do NOT approve of arresting women who abort, I'm just trying to say that this is a very serious "mistake" to make.

I'm lost here.

Which part lost you?

Quote:

I would have asked why you don't want to be pregnant.

I have been pregnant and had a child. I would no want to go through that ever, ever again. The pregnancy was full of debilitating nausea and vomiting to the point where my husband had to take a leave from work to care for me, as I was bedridden. I was rushed to the hospital several times because my intestines were blocked.

Then you would definitely be allowed an abortion in my hypothetical clinic.

futureshock · Posts: 618 Join date: 2008-03-10

EiriForLife wrote:

Quote:

And the older I get, the more PRO-CHOICE I become, especially since I have a daughter. The idea that someone else will take control of her body away from her enrages me. Over my dead body will I allow that to happen.

But you're ok with your grandchild dying?

Eiri, I respect the fact that you consider a microscopic fertilized egg or embryo to be a human being, but I do not. I consider it to be human, like my cells are human, my heart is human, etc., etc., but I don't consider it to be a human being at that stage. When it is born, I view it as a human being.
Please read this excerpt from my blog (link at the end):

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Why I Am Pro-Choice

Even nature does not think embryos are as valuable as born people. The vast majority (up to 80%) of fertilized eggs and embryos die before they are born. This has nothing to do with abortion, birth control, or any other reason. This happens in every fertile, sexually active woman: 

80% Embryo Loss

 "PROF. SANDEL: [W]hat percent of fertilized eggs fail to implant or are otherwise lost?
DR. OPITZ: The answer to your first question is that it is enormous. Estimates range all the way from 60 percent to 80 percent of the very earliest stages, cleavage stages, for example, that are lost."  source

In fact, the numbers of embryos lost are so huge, they make abortion pale in comparison. Natural procreation causes more embryo loss than abortion: 

"The rate of natural embryo loss after conception in unassisted human reproduction is high, some suggest as high as 80 percent, and the fact of natural loss is fairly well known, so that persons who engage in or permit the pursuit of conception through unassisted reproduction are knowingly bringing about the conception of many embryos that will die.

Moreover, they suggest, the high rate of natural embryo loss should bring into question the views of those who believe that early-stage human embryos merit equal treatment with human children and adults. If so many die in the natural course of things, how do we not treat natural procreation as a great fountain of tragedy and carnage? They argue that the natural rate of embryo loss, and our response to it, should teach us something about the limited significance of human embryos in the earliest stages." source

Sexual Intercourse While Trying to Conceive Causes More Embryo Loss Than Abortion:

If you truly value each embryo as much as each born child, then you would have to be against anyone ever having another child, because more embryos die than are ever born, so the bottom line is, you kill more unborn children than ever get born, just in the process of trying to have a born child.
If your first reaction is that, well, that loss is really just part of nature, and so it's not that bad, then I ask you this:
If it is ok that up to 9 embryos die for every child born, would it be ok if some of your born children died while you were trying to conceive another?
OF COURSE NOT, RIGHT? But why? Their deaths would just be part of nature, exactly equivalent to the embryos that die so that one can be born, right?
The answer is, no one really values an embryo as much as they do a born child, no matter what they think.

 "We now know that for every successful pregnancy which results in a live birth, many, perhaps as many as five, early embryos will be lost or 'miscarry' (although these are not perhaps miscarriages' as the term is normally used, because this sort of very early embryo loss is almost always entirely unnoticed).

How are we to think of the decision to have a child in the light of these facts? One obvious and inescapable conclusion is that God and/or nature has ordained that 'spare' embryos be produced for almost every pregnancy, and that most of these will have to die in order that a sibling embryo can come to birth. Thus the sacrifice of embryos seems to be an inescapable and inevitable part of the process of procreation. .**"

Large numbers of embryos, in other words, die as collateral damage in any case, side effects of normal, natural attempts to get pregnant. source

http://wingnutwatch.typepad.com/wingnutwatch/2008/06/this-is-the-seq.html

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futureshock · Posts: 618 Join date: 2008-03-10

EiriForLife wrote:

Your medical record is confidential and ANY procedure you have done should be in there, especially one as serious as an abortion.

Why? What makes it so serious, and why does it need to be in a person's records?

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futureshock · Posts: 618 Join date: 2008-03-10

EiriForLife wrote:

Then you would definitely be allowed an abortion in my hypothetical clinic.

Thanks Dr. Eiri. Very Happy

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EiriForLife · Posts: 173 Join date: 2008-07-21

futureshock wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Quote:

And the older I get, the more PRO-CHOICE I become, especially since I have a daughter. The idea that someone else will take control of her body away from her enrages me. Over my dead body will I allow that to happen.

But you're ok with your grandchild dying?

Eiri, I respect the fact that you consider a microscopic fertilized egg or embryo to be a human being, but I do not. I consider it to be human, like my cells are human, my heart is human, etc., etc., but I don't consider it to be a human being at that stage. When it is born, I view it as a human being.

Why is it not a "being"? It is human, I'm not going to pull the "iz it a frog lolz?" thing on you. I know you realise it is human material. But I'm not claiming it to be a person here. I don't want to open that can of worms!

Also, I know all of the facts you mentioned in your article, I use those facts to fight pro-lifers who think birth control is abortifacient

Erulissë · Posts: 213 Join date: 2008-03-10

EiriForLife wrote:

Your medical record is confidential and ANY procedure you have done should be in there, especially one as serious as an abortion.

Sinceabortion has no long effects, there is no reasonfor a doctor who is looking at your lungs or whatever to know you had an abortion when youwere sixteen.

Abortion is not that serious as surgery as peoplewould have you think. local anesthesia, takes ten minutes, walking around immediately after. it's not this awful pain stricken thing that is wholey traumatic and makes peopletake weeks off work or something. i have had ingrown toenails makemore trouble than my abortion.

You said you would ask me why I din't want to be pregnant. I would answer "because I don't want to have a child and pregnancy is awful. I get sick all the time and I don'twant kids" . Let's keep going; what would you say?

futureshock · Posts: 618 Join date: 2008-03-10

Some abortion is so simple it's even called "menstrual extraction". Why would you need to have that in your medical record?

Women have spontaneous abortions very frequently, in which fertilized eggs and embryos pass in their menses without them even knowing about it. Should these be in all of our medical records?

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EiriForLife · Posts: 173 Join date: 2008-07-21

Erulissë wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Your medical record is confidential and ANY procedure you have done should be in there, especially one as serious as an abortion.

Sinceabortion has no long effects,

It doesn't? Some women become infertile from it, others die. It can also have severe and long lasting mental effects. Not to mention a baby is never born. Lying and saying it "has no long term affect" is just silly. Are these effects common? No. But they DO exist.

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there is no reasonfor a doctor who is looking at your lungs or whatever to know you had an abortion when youwere sixteen.

I don't see why he would look at that part of my medical record, but it should still be in there.

Quote:

Abortion is not that serious as surgery as peoplewould have you think. local anesthesia, takes ten minutes, walking around immediately after. it's not this awful pain stricken thing that is wholey traumatic and makes peopletake weeks off work or something. i have had ingrown toenails makemore trouble than my abortion.

You said you would ask me why I din't want to be pregnant. I would answer "because I don't want to have a child and pregnancy is awful. I get sick all the time and I don'twant kids" . Let's keep going; what would you say?

If you had proof of that sickness being truly debilitating then you would be allowed an abortion.

EiriForLife · Posts: 173 Join date: 2008-07-21

futureshock wrote:

Some abortion is so simple it's even called "menstrual extraction". Why would you need to have that in your medical record?

Women have spontaneous abortions very frequently, in which fertilized eggs and embryos pass in their menses without them even knowing about it. Should these be in all of our medical records?

Because I want every toothache I go in for noted in my record. That way, if years from now I go in with something totally weird, they can look at a COMPLETE medical history as opposed to one with wholes caused by shame. Which is the only reason I could guess for you to not want your abortion included. If it was such a simple procedure, why do you want to hide it? If you don't think it's bad then why do you want to hide it?

And a human being still dies. A child is still never born. That's not simple.

Erulissë · Posts: 213 Join date: 2008-03-10

EiriForLife wrote:

Erulissë wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Your medical record is confidential and ANY procedure you have done should be in there, especially one as serious as an abortion.

Sinceabortion has no long effects,

It doesn't? Some women become infertile from it, others die. It can also have severe and long lasting mental effects. Not to mention a baby is never born. Lying and saying it "has no long term affect" is just silly. Are these effects common? No. But they DO exist.

Quote:

there is no reasonfor a doctor who is looking at your lungs or whatever to know you had an abortion when youwere sixteen.

I don't see why he would look at that part of my medical record, but it should still be in there.

Quote:

Abortion is not that serious as surgery as peoplewould have you think. local anesthesia, takes ten minutes, walking around immediately after. it's not this awful pain stricken thing that is wholey traumatic and makes peopletake weeks off work or something. i have had ingrown toenails makemore trouble than my abortion.

You said you would ask me why I din't want to be pregnant. I would answer "because I don't want to have a child and pregnancy is awful. I get sick all the time and I don'twant kids" . Let's keep going; what would you say?

If you had proof of that sickness being truly debilitating then you would be allowed an abortion.

i said that abortion has nolongterm effects so there is no reason a doctor looking at your lungs needs to know about your abortion at sixteen like theywouldn't need to know you had a tooth pulled at 12. the mental effects are up to debate depending on which prolife site youread, but that is not something that needs put in your MED records, tho.

I don't know why you say it should still be there other than youthink it should. if there is sterility (sp?) or other problems then that isadifferent matter and your ob/gyn would need to know but not your general med record. if you had an abortion with no effects then it's as important to be in your record as your cavity filling at age 16.

i guess I don't like the clinic you run! ha ha. Razz

You say that ifIhad proof the sickness was debilitating then you'd allow me to have an abortion. pregnancy isdebilitating there aremanythings you can't do when pregnant. proof is there! or doyou get to randomly decide what reasons you like or not?

futureshock · Posts: 618 Join date: 2008-03-10

EiriForLife wrote:

Erulissë wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Your medical record is confidential and ANY procedure you have done should be in there, especially one as serious as an abortion.

Sinceabortion has no long effects,

It doesn't? Some women become infertile from it, others die. It can also have severe and long lasting mental effects. Not to mention a baby is never born. Lying and saying it "has no long term affect" is just silly. Are these effects common? No. But they DO exist.

Those things are much more likely to happen from giving birth. Why do you think an abortion could make you infertile? Could having your period make you infertile?
During an abortion, the uterine lining, the same thing that comes out in a period, is gently drawn out of the uterus. The embryo, which is so small you can't even see it, comes along with the lining. THAT'S IT.

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there is no reasonfor a doctor who is looking at your lungs or whatever to know you had an abortion when youwere sixteen.

I don't see why he would look at that part of my medical record, but it should still be in there.

Quote:

Abortion is not that serious as surgery as peoplewould have you think. local anesthesia, takes ten minutes, walking around immediately after. it's not this awful pain stricken thing that is wholey traumatic and makes peopletake weeks off work or something. i have had ingrown toenails makemore trouble than my abortion.

You said you would ask me why I din't want to be pregnant. I would answer "because I don't want to have a child and pregnancy is awful. I get sick all the time and I don'twant kids" . Let's keep going; what would you say?

If you had proof of that sickness being truly debilitating then you would be allowed an abortion.[/quote]

Pregnancy is debilitating for most women.

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