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 Unwed Teen Mothers

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futureshock

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:06 pm

I don't get it just in general, not just in the situation involving Krystine's mom.

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W.S.



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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:35 pm

Agreed.

I can understand not wishing to be married. But to have a common law marriage sounds like the same thing - minus the wedding/honeymoon.

Essentially you are 'married' without the fun parts but all the crap that goes along with marriage that, from the sounds of it, are exactly what people are trying to avoid by simply living together.
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futureshock

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:45 am

W.S. wrote:
from the sounds of it, are exactly what people are trying to avoid by simply living together.

lol!

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krystineM

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:26 pm

i dont know why they decided to wait,
but they chose to wait before getting legally married,
and waited before becoming common law aswell.
i would think it was to make sure they could see each other being together for a long time,
without being obligated to be together [in a way] because of a marriage.

they waited 10 years until they offically got married, and to me, my brothers and everyone we know,
it didnt seem like such a big change because they'd been together for so long.
but i think it was important to them, that they waited regardless of being common law or not.
they both were married and divorced, and i think they wanted to make sure they could and would still want
each other in the long run.

it may sound silly, and maybe it is, but it worked for them.
i mean, how many marriages actually stay together through the good and the bad?
from what i see, it doesnt look like that many. some do work things out, but some split right away...

for some, a marriage is not their live long goal or dream, there's other things which are more important than spending thousands or more on a wedding. it could be anything. and having children may be one of those things too, but it does not mean they have to be tied down to have a child, because if they love each other, they know that they dont have to show or express their love with a wedding, a ring and a marriage. they expless their love, with a child, or whatever else makes them who they are.
they can still do all the things which make them happy and what not just like a marriage, but they dont need a marriage to show it.
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NorthStar

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:43 pm

futureshock wrote:
NorthStar wrote:
futureshock wrote:
NorthStar wrote:
futureshock wrote:
If you are an unwed teen mother, what made you decide to have a child?

Why do you assume that all unwed teenage mothers decided to have a child? Some are raped.

*silence*

Oh.

I thought Danielle answered that for me.

I do not respond to disrespectful posts.

Quote :
Maybe you equate being pregnant with deciding to have a child, I do not. A woman who finds herself pregnant, through consensual or non consensual sex, still has to consciously decide to have a child or not.

I am curious as to what goes into that decision making process.

But a pro-life woman who has been raped believes that she already has a child and does not have a valid choice to abort. So to say she has "decided to have a child" just because she went through her only valid option seems unfair.
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Danielle



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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:59 pm

Oooh, cut me to the quick. I really could care less about your views Northstar. You are obviously another close-minded individual who wishes to control the minds (and bodies) of others. Also, I still stand by the twat comment. Wink
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Maz

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:40 am

Quote :
But a pro-life woman who has been raped believes that she already has a child and does not have a valid choice to abort. So to say she has "decided to have a child" just because she went through her only valid option seems unfair.

She has a legal option to abort, or to adopt or to be a mother. If her moral beliefs exclude the only option that stops the pregnancy, then she has to accept that the pregnancy will continue. I don't think that it is "unfair" on her, when it is her own personal morality that is responsible for her continuing the pregnancy. Yes it is unfair that she raped. But the outcome of the rape-pregnancy is entirely in her hands.
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RebelCats

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:24 am

NorthStar wrote:
futureshock wrote:
NorthStar wrote:
futureshock wrote:
NorthStar wrote:
futureshock wrote:
If you are an unwed teen mother, what made you decide to have a child?

Why do you assume that all unwed teenage mothers decided to have a child? Some are raped.

*silence*

Oh.

I thought Danielle answered that for me.

I do not respond to disrespectful posts.

Quote :
Maybe you equate being pregnant with deciding to have a child, I do not. A woman who finds herself pregnant, through consensual or non consensual sex, still has to consciously decide to have a child or not.

I am curious as to what goes into that decision making process.

But a pro-life woman who has been raped believes that she already has a child and does not have a valid choice to abort. So to say she has "decided to have a child" just because she went through her only valid option seems unfair.

As unfair as it may seem to you or anyone else it is still a choice she made to continue with the pregnancy. Its only "unfair" by her own accord because she made the choice to be pro-life. No one is forcing that belief on her.
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NorthStar

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:19 am

Maz wrote:
I don't think that it is "unfair" on her, when it is her own personal morality that is responsible for her continuing the pregnancy.

But that was not the issue. The issue was whether she decided to have a child. It was the rapist who decided to force her have a child, not her decision to have one. Why do you want to take the accountability off of the rapist?
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Maz

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:43 am

NorthStar wrote:
Maz wrote:
I don't think that it is "unfair" on her, when it is her own personal morality that is responsible for her continuing the pregnancy.

But that was not the issue. The issue was whether she decided to have a child. It was the rapist who decided to force her have a child, not her decision to have one. Why do you want to take the accountability off of the rapist?

Yes, the rapist made her pregnant. But she is choosing to allow the pregnancy to continue. It is SHE ALONE who decides that. She can stop the pregnancy from progessing if she cannot continue with it.

Rape is a crime. There is no crime of "causing a pregnancy through force". There is no crime of "the rape of a prolifer who can't have an abortion". Of course a rape victim shouldn't have to make these decisions...but rape happens so they do have to sometimes make this decision. And that decision is down to each individual woman.

Abortion has got nothing to do with rape. Abortion is a reproductive option for women regardless of how they became pregnant.
You can hold a rapist to account for his behaviour without getting involved with the woman and her reproductive rights.
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NorthStar

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:41 pm

Maz wrote:
Yes, the rapist made her pregnant. But she is choosing to allow the pregnancy to continue. It is SHE ALONE who decides that. She can stop the pregnancy from progessing if she cannot continue with it.

Again, that point is irrelevant to the discussion. Here was the question at issue, quoted verbatim from the opening post: "If you are an unwed teen mother, what made you decide to have a child?" If she was wondering why teenage girls continued pregnancies, she could have asked that question. But she did not.

Quote :
Rape is a crime. There is no crime of "causing a pregnancy through force".

Causing a pregnancy through force is rape.

Quote :
Abortion has got nothing to do with rape. Abortion is a reproductive option for women regardless of how they became pregnant.

It is not a "reproductive option" any more than infanticide is a reproductive option.

Quote :
You can hold a rapist to account for his behaviour without getting involved with the woman and her reproductive rights.

But you are denying that he is even responsible for the child's existence when the basic biological fact is that he is entirely responsible. The woman's decision to not get an abortion does not change that basic fact. So you are opposing holding him responsible for his actions.
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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:29 pm

NorthStar wrote:
Maz wrote:
Yes, the rapist made her pregnant. But she is choosing to allow the pregnancy to continue. It is SHE ALONE who decides that. She can stop the pregnancy from progessing if she cannot continue with it.

Again, that point is irrelevant to the discussion. Here was the question at issue, quoted verbatim from the opening post: "If you are an unwed teen mother, what made you decide to have a child?" If she was wondering why teenage girls continued pregnancies, she could have asked that question. But she did not.


It became relevant when you brought rape into the conversation.
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NorthStar

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:56 pm

RebelCats wrote:
It became relevant when you brought rape into the conversation.

How so? We were talking about why teenage girls decide to have a child, not why they decide to continue a pregnancy that has already begun. The rapist, in this case, is entirely responsible for the existence of the child.
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krystineM

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:35 pm

the rapist may be responsible, but i do not think hes going to stick around.
after all, hes a RAPIST. hes not thinking of who he may knock up.
and rape is not the sole reason why teens decide to keep a baby if they become pregnant.
it may be for some, but there are MANY other reasons why they keep a child.

i think you need to take rape out of every topic.
your thoughts are based solely on someone being raped, keeping a child because of rape
and so on and so forth.
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Maz

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:57 am

Quote :
"Causing a pregnancy through force is rape."
No it isn't. Rape is an act of forced SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. There is no such crime of "causing a pregnancy through force".

Quote :
dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
rape ....raped, rap·ing. –noun
1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3. statutory rape.
4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
–verb (used with object) 6. to force to have sexual intercourse.
7. to plunder (a place); despoil.
8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.
–verb (used without object) 9. to commit rape.

Pregnancy can be a consequence of an act of rape, but it is not a crime in itself, and because the fetus resides in the woman's body, it is her right to decide what to do with that pregnancy.

Quote :
It is not a "reproductive option" any more than infanticide is a reproductive option.
Opinion, not based on fact.

Abortion is LEGAL, therefore IT IS A REPRODUCTIVE CHOICE

Maz wrote:
You can hold a rapist to account for his behaviour without getting involved with the woman and her reproductive rights.

Northstar wrote:
But you are denying that he is even responsible for the child's existence when the basic biological fact is that he is entirely responsible. The woman's decision to not get an abortion does not change that basic fact. So you are opposing holding him responsible for his actions.

How am I denying that he is responsible when you yourself have quoted me acknowledging his responsibility? Once a woman is pregnant, forced or not, any decision regarding that pregnancy is hers and hers alone. The rapist is guilty of rape and will be punished accordingly. The rape victim will take back control of her own body and make her reproductive choices accordingly.

krystineM wrote:
i think you need to take rape out of every topic.
your thoughts are based solely on someone being raped, keeping a child because of rape
and so on and so forth.

Agree entirely.
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Maz

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:15 pm

NorthStar wrote:
Maz wrote:
Yes, the rapist made her pregnant. But she is choosing to allow the pregnancy to continue. It is SHE ALONE who decides that. She can stop the pregnancy from progessing if she cannot continue with it.

Again, that point is irrelevant to the discussion. Here was the question at issue, quoted verbatim from the opening post: "If you are an unwed teen mother, what made you decide to have a child?" If she was wondering why teenage girls continued pregnancies, she could have asked that question. But she did not.

But I was not responding to the original post - as you well know. I was responding to YOUR post:-

Quote :
But a pro-life woman who has been raped believes that she already has a child and does not have a valid choice to abort. So to say she has "decided to have a child" just because she went through her only valid option seems unfair.

And as such, my response was entirely relevant.

You don't own the threads and you don't decide how people choose which post to respond to.
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Maz

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:19 pm

NorthStar wrote:
RebelCats wrote:
It became relevant when you brought rape into the conversation.

How so? We were talking about why teenage girls decide to have a child, not why they decide to continue a pregnancy that has already begun. The rapist, in this case, is entirely responsible for the existence of the child.

He may well be responsible for the creation - through the act of rape - but he is not responsible in any way for the resulting pregnancy.

No rapist has the power to force his pregnant rape victim to remain pregnant with his rape-conceived fetus.

That repulsive act of violence against women comes from prolifers like you.
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futureshock

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:13 pm

NorthStar wrote:


But a pro-life woman who has been raped believes that she already has a child and does not have a valid choice to abort. So to say she has "decided to have a child" just because she went through her only valid option seems unfair.

Then that would be her answer. The question is more for pro-choice women, actually, although anyone is welcome to answer.

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:15 pm

RebelCats wrote:


As unfair as it may seem to you or anyone else it is still a choice she made to continue with the pregnancy. Its only "unfair" by her own accord because she made the choice to be pro-life. No one is forcing that belief on her.

Exactly.

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futureshock

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:22 pm

NorthStar wrote:


Again, that point is irrelevant to the discussion. Here was the question at issue, quoted verbatim from the opening post: "If you are an unwed teen mother, what made you decide to have a child?" If she was wondering why teenage girls continued pregnancies, she could have asked that question. But she did not.
I truly understand where you are coming from, but to me,
"what made you decide to have a child?" and "why teenage girls continued pregnancies" are the same question.
Quote :


Quote :
Rape is a crime. There is no crime of "causing a pregnancy through force".

Causing a pregnancy through force is rape.
ok, but that still doesn't cause a child to be born without another choice involved.
Quote :

Quote :
Abortion has got nothing to do with rape. Abortion is a reproductive option for women regardless of how they became pregnant.

It is not a "reproductive option" any more than infanticide is a reproductive option.
Abortion is a legal option, infanticide is not.
Quote :


Quote :
You can hold a rapist to account for his behaviour without getting involved with the woman and her reproductive rights.

But you are denying that he is even responsible for the child's existence when the basic biological fact is that he is entirely responsible. The woman's decision to not get an abortion does not change that basic fact. So you are opposing holding him responsible for his actions.

So are there two degrees of rape, then? One if a woman doesn't also get pregnant, and one if she does?

If a woman is raped she doesn't get pregnant that instant. It takes days. Most hospitals, even Catholic ones, offer Plan B to rape victims to AVOID pregnancy.

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futureshock

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:31 pm

NorthStar wrote:
Maz wrote:
I don't think that it is "unfair" on her, when it is her own personal morality that is responsible for her continuing the pregnancy.

But that was not the issue. The issue was whether she decided to have a child. It was the rapist who decided to force her have a child, not her decision to have one. Why do you want to take the accountability off of the rapist?

I think your way of thinking takes something away from the birth mother. It was the birth mother who decided to go through the physical pain and emotional turmoil to give life to the child. I think that deserves some respect.

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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:42 pm

NorthStar is saying that a forced pregnancy is rape,
yet when i asked him the question:

krystine: Would you think this is ok if a girl you were sleeping with who tells you shes on bc secretely goes off it to get pregnant and does not tell you, then a few weeks later says oh, im pregnant? [hypathetically speaking] Would you want to be obligated into staying or want to have a child that way without having a say about it?


NorthStar replied: Yes.

what i asked above is forced pregnancy, the man has no say, has no clue whats going on, the girl is forcing the pregnancy without the guys consent or knowledge, and North answered that he would feel ok with that.
so how could he now say that its forced rape when hes fine with that happening if he were the person in the situation.
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PostSubject: Re: Unwed Teen Mothers   Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:27 pm

Good question.

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