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 Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?

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futureshock

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PostSubject: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:45 am

How do poor people stay poor generation after generation? Does it have anything to do with the choices they make?

Also, there are some people who are lower middle class, bordering on poor, who do not realize it. They think they are "doing fine". Have you ever encountered anyone like this?
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krystineM

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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:42 pm

their lazy people, who dont want to get off there ass and get a job to make money for a place to live and food to eat.
when you see a homeless person, whats the first thing you see, a sign saying 'could you spare some change?'
or 'i haven't eaten in 2 weeks...' or there just holding a cup where people who pass by drop change in.
And since they get this "easy money" they wont go out to get a job, so they'll stay poor.

The ones who are "bordering on poor" make the best of their situation, there could be a crisis in the family that made them slump a little lower than usual, but they make the best out of the situation until things settle down again. And to them, yeah they are doing fine, because their managing, still putting food on the table and have a roof over their head.
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:12 pm

Actually I think the majority of homeless people are mentally ill, not lazy. Years ago these people were in mental institutions, but then sometime in the 1970's many of those places ran out of funding and were closed.
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:40 am

i dont doubt that some are mentally ill, but they have housing for mentally ill.
But that was 1970, they now provide housing for mentally ill where a bunch of people stay at.
they are still homeless, they still dont work, but its a shelter that they can sleep in and i think they get a meal too.
There's a man down where my old area is, and he had a mid-life crisis.
He was a really intelligent guy too, he taught at a college, had a wife and daughter, but one day his wife got into an accident while driving with the daughter and they both were killed.
After that he went a little crazy, stopped working, and shortly after started losing money, [i think he started drugs] lost his house everything. And now he lives in this house for mentally ill, and is able to wander around where ever he pleases, some people give him a coffee or some spare change when they see him, but he has nothing accept that little shelter they provide for him.
The rest of the people though, are young teens who have run away from home due to a bad situation, or others because they lost their jobs and house, but because they have gotten used to the homeless lifestyle, they wont change or do something about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:45 pm

Homeless are primarily mentally ill individuals. Deinstitutionalization in the 60's led towards this.

Krystine, you need to read about this population. You are espousing alot of myths and stereotypes. I don't have time to address what you've written, but it's really incorrect.
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:37 am

we live in 2008!
housing is provided, shelters are provided, they dont accept it. They feel the need to live outdoors.
yes they are mentally ill, but few are not.
Its not myths or stereotypes, its a fact as well. Go walk down the streets of toronto if you ever visit Toronto Ontario.
MAJORITY are teens who came from troubled homes, and others a older men and some women who are indeed mentally ill.
I dont think what ive said is very incorrect.
Times have changed and today these housings and shelters are provided but they dont accept it.
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:18 pm

Most of the ones that don't accept shelter are mentally ill.
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:07 am

I think we are talking about a societal vs victim blame for why people live in poverty. Do you know what a scotoma is? In some cases it could be argued becasue someone was raised in poverty they literally do not see ways to get out of poverty. Yes some probably do not make the effort but some do.
Education level, willingness to move out of a poor area, income transfer programs, and many other factors effect poverty. I don't thinks its so much a choice as a culture and its hard to get out of.
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:27 am

Jincks013 wrote:
I think we are talking about a societal vs victim blame for why people live in poverty. Do you know what a scotoma is? In some cases it could be argued becasue someone was raised in poverty they literally do not see ways to get out of poverty. Yes some probably do not make the effort but some do.
Education level, willingness to move out of a poor area, income transfer programs, and many other factors effect poverty. I don't thinks its so much a choice as a culture and its hard to get out of.

That's exactly what I was talking about here:

futureshock wrote:
How do poor people stay poor generation after generation? Does it have anything to do with the choices they make?

Also, there are some people who are lower middle class, bordering on poor, who do not realize it. They think they are "doing fine". Have you ever encountered anyone like this?
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Erulissė



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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:45 am

krystineM wrote:
we live in 2008!
housing is provided, shelters are provided, they dont accept it. They feel the need to live outdoors.

I can't speak for Canadian housing, but I would invite you to tour the shelters and housing provided for the homeless in your area. Ask about the rules, ask about the acceptance policy. Ask some of the individuals staying there their stories. It's typically not a matter of just walking in the door and having a place to stay. Many prefer living on the street than these shelters, which can be just as toxic if not more so. Decompensated individuals are there without medications, drug addiction runs rampant, disease is untreated.

I work with the mentally ill and homeless population in the US. I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass. Very Happy

futureshock wrote:
Also, there are some people who are lower middle class, bordering on poor, who do not realize it. They think they are "doing fine". Have you ever encountered anyone like this?

But whose standards are you applying? Many people believe that if they have a place to live, and food on the table, they are doing fine, and for them, that just might be true.
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krystineM

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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:23 pm

although i have never been to a shelter, i was close to going to one when i got kicked out.
but my friend begged me not to go, because [and i dont disagree] they are pretty creepy places.
some people do indeed have illnesses but some will steal anything you have, rape you or beat you up.
so that could also be a factor as to why they dont want shelter, their living somewhere where everyone seems to be out to get them.

I know your not "blowing smoke up my ass" i dont know why you always have to end a response with an idiotic and childish remark at the end.
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Erulissė



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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:28 pm

krystineM wrote:
although i have never been to a shelter, i was close to going to one when i got kicked out.
but my friend begged me not to go, because [and i dont disagree] they are pretty creepy places.
some people do indeed have illnesses but some will steal anything you have, rape you or beat you up.
so that could also be a factor as to why they dont want shelter, their living somewhere where everyone seems to be out to get them.

I know your not "blowing smoke up my ass" i dont know why you always have to end a response with an idiotic and childish remark at the end.

It wasn't an idiotic and childish remark- It's a colloquialism. If I were 'blowing smoke up your ass' it would reflect negatively against me because it would mean I'm trying to decieve you. It's not an insult in any way, shape, or form. If you don't understand something, then just ask. I will be sure to make all my insults plain as day so no one gets confused. Cool

Yes, many individuals do not want to live in shelters. So now you see your earlier comments are no longer relevant. And now that you recognize that a significant number of the homeless population are mentally ill, you can have more compassion for the "lazy people, who dont want to get off there [sic] ass and get a job to make money for a place to live and food to eat".


rendeer <--cute smiley
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:56 am

Well said, Erulissė. (How do you get the dots above the last e in your id? I copy & pasted it.)
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:13 am

you know what, there are alot of mentaly ill people who i see working just fine.
there was a guy at my old job who had downs syndrome, and he had a job, he worked there longer than i had.
there's another one that works at the movie theatre near my place, and he is going just fine too.
And you know why, because they can get their medication that they NEED to take, why, because they dont use their handicap as an excuse as to why they cant get a job. The people who dont get a job because of their condition and then live on the streets, are lazy. Plain and simple. They can go out and get a job any time they wanted to but they choose not to.
The ones who are too ill to get a job, are the ones who need to be taken off the streets and put in a mental institution, because they dont know how to control their actions due to the lack of medication.
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Erulissė



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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:47 am

krystineM wrote:
you know what, there are alot of mentaly ill people who i see working just fine.
there was a guy at my old job who had downs syndrome, and he had a job, he worked there longer than i had.
there's another one that works at the movie theatre near my place, and he is going just fine too.
And you know why, because they can get their medication that they NEED to take, why, because they dont use their handicap as an excuse as to why they cant get a job. The people who dont get a job because of their condition and then live on the streets, are lazy. Plain and simple. They can go out and get a job any time they wanted to but they choose not to.
The ones who are too ill to get a job, are the ones who need to be taken off the streets and put in a mental institution, because they dont know how to control their actions due to the lack of medication.

Krystine, Down's Syndrome is not a mental illness. It's mental retardation, which is completely different.

You're young and you just don't know some things, and you make these harsh judgements about people you've never met or talked to or learned anything about. One day when you get a little more experience things will change.

I hope. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:45 pm

krystineM wrote:

The ones who are too ill to get a job, are the ones who need to be taken off the streets and put in a mental institution, because they dont know how to control their actions due to the lack of medication.

BUT THEY CAN'T be taken off the street, that is the whole problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:12 pm

And why do you think that is furute?
Because 1, their families probably do not want them, don't want anything to do with them, or don't want to care for them.
2, it costs money to put them ina hospital or somewhere where they need special attention as well.
So clearly no one will do anything about it, because they do not want to take money out of their own pockets.
How many shelters are open to homeless? How many actually go to them? That's one source to get them off the street, but they dont accept the help.

Erulissė, i do not think i am that uneducated about certain things.
I may not have all my facts about this, but you know, there are alot of other people with different mental illnesses, and they make it from day to day, have a job, a good place to live etc.
The ones who want others to feel sorry for them, are the ones on the streets, because -once again- they are lazy, and want someone else to get them out of a rut.
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Erulissė



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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:38 pm

krystineM wrote:
And why do you think that is furute?
Because 1, their families probably do not want them, don't want anything to do with them, or don't want to care for them.

If you said that to someone whose parent/child/sister/brother etc. were homeless and mentally ill, they would most likely break down in tears. Many, many family members have broken down in front of me because they are so impotent to help. Theydo want to help, they are desperate to help, but are unable because of the legal system. You might want to check out the NAMI website for real stories, not media hogwash.

If someone is over 18, families cannot force anyone to get help. A person with a mental illness has to be either a danger to themself or others to be forced into help. And even then there are legal strangleholds in place to protect that person's rights. The system in place is not working.

krystineM wrote:
2, it costs money to put them ina hospital or somewhere where they need special attention as well.
So clearly no one will do anything about it, because they do not want to take money out of their own pockets..

'No one will do anything about it b/c they don't want to take money out of their own pockets'? You talk like people are selfishly doing this. Have you any idea how much money it takes? I just talked to a family last week who were upper middle class with a schizophrenic son who has been in and out of the hospital for treatment for years. She even said they could sell everything they owned, take out liens against their home, and they still wouldn't have enough money to pay for adequate treatment. She's right, too. It's not selfish people; it's a system that's set up against treatment already.

krystineM wrote:
How many shelters are open to homeless? How many actually go to them? That's one source to get them off the street, but they dont accept the help.

You already admitted that
Quote :
they are pretty creepy places.
Did you forget? I've already told you it's not a matter of just walking in the door. Did you forget that, too?

Let go of these stereotypes!

krystineM wrote:
Erulissė, i do not think i am that uneducated about certain things.
I may not have all my facts about this, but you know, there are alot of other people with different mental illnesses, and they make it from day to day, have a job, a good place to live etc.
The ones who want others to feel sorry for them, are the ones on the streets, because -once again- they are lazy, and want someone else to get them out of a rut.

Krystine, I am not down on you, but you are uneducated about mental illness. Just a minute ago that Down's Syndrome was a mental illness. And here you admit you don't have all your facts. That's okay; many people don't know much about it, either.

Have you ever actually spoken to a homeless person about their circumstances? Have they actually told you, "I want you to feel sorry for me" or "I want to live on the street and be lazy" or "I don't want to work"?

Again, let go of these stereotypes! They are wrong, judgmental, hideous, and harmful.
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:15 pm

i never said they are telling people that they want them to feel sorry for them. But deep down, they are wanting someone to feel that way.
And yes i have spoken to homeless people before, [none that had an illness] but one man said he lost his job, just his house, his wife and kids were tired of his drinking habbit, and offered him help loads of times but he refused, so the wife left with the kids, and he ended up on the streets. This is why i say laziness. They are offered help, and support, but refuse it. They dont seem to see the connection to get their act together and get a job, to get off the streets. They want someone to do it for them.
Another homeless person i talked to was a teenage runaway, she was in an abusive household, and left home, she got a small job, and shared a place to live with a friend but she got into the drug scene and all her money would go to drugs instead of paying rent or for food, so she ended up on the streets and has not spoken to a family member since. She still does drugs, and begs people for spare change. And you can only guess where that spare change goes to. Drugs.

Im not saying people are selfishly doing this [not getting the mentally ill off the streets] but because it costs money, no stranger, doctor, nurse or other social worker will get them off the streets if they have to pay for it all on their own. We live in a "everyone for him/herself" kind of world. Where people have their own problems and their own families to raise. Not all families feel they want to cut off connections with their runaway family members but some feel that way.
So their not going to jump up to help them.

I know its not just a matter of walking into a shelter, you sometimes [or most likely] are put on a waiting list to get in.
So what are they supposed to for the time they are waiting? Sometimes it takes months or longer to get in. So since their living on the streets, why would they want to go into some shelter after getting adjusted to living in a box or on a corner? It becomes a sort of life style for them.
I made a mistake thinking down symdrome was a mental illness.
But if you read between the lines of what a homeless person says, its 'i want someone to pick me up from where i am now, get me out of this mess, and provide for me.'
Just because they are homeless, does not mean they are uncapable of getting a job to put money towards a house and get back on track.
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Erulissė



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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:46 pm

krystineM wrote:
i never said they are telling people that they want them to feel sorry for them. But deep down, they are wanting someone to feel that way.
And yes i have spoken to homeless people before, [none that had an illness] but one man said he lost his job, just his house, his wife and kids were tired of his drinking habbit, and offered him help loads of times but he refused, so the wife left with the kids, and he ended up on the streets. This is why i say laziness. They are offered help, and support, but refuse it. They dont seem to see the connection to get their act together and get a job, to get off the streets. They want someone to do it for them.

The guy is an alcohol addict. He has a disease. You expect him to walk into a job interview? You think he's just lazy? I'm sorry, but you know nothing about alcoholism. (By the way, addiction is a codeable mental illness. It's an Axis I listing from the DSM-IV-TR.)

Quote :
Another homeless person i talked to was a teenage runaway, she was in an abusive household, and left home, she got a small job, and shared a place to live with a friend but she got into the drug scene and all her money would go to drugs instead of paying rent or for food, so she ended up on the streets and has not spoken to a family member since. She still does drugs, and begs people for spare change. And you can only guess where that spare change goes to. Drugs.

Do you think she's just lazy? Or sick? She is an addict. She was abused. She's probably prostituting herself. She needs help, not for people to decide for her what she thinks and believes and wants.

Quote :
Im not saying people are selfishly doing this [not getting the mentally ill off the streets] but because it costs money, no stranger, doctor, nurse or other social worker will get them off the streets if they have to pay for it all on their own. We live in a "everyone for him/herself" kind of world. Where people have their own problems and their own families to raise. Not all families feel they want to cut off connections with their runaway family members but some feel that way.
So their not going to jump up to help them.

I'm not really sure what you are saying. Doctors and nurses and social workers help to the best of their abilities, but like I said before, you can't force anyone into treatment, and many individuals don't think they need treatment b/c they are just that sick.

Quote :
I made a mistake thinking down symdrome was a mental illness.
But if you read between the lines of what a homeless person says, its 'i want someone to pick me up from where i am now, get me out of this mess, and provide for me.'
Just because they are homeless, does not mean they are uncapable of getting a job to put money towards a house and get back on track.

No, no, no, you cannot "read between the lines" of what someone tells you. Or decide what someone really wants "deep down". That's called stereotyping and you are applying your own ideas to someone. Assumptions. Why even talk to them if you are just going to decide for yourself what they think?

Let's look at this from a practical point. Someone is homeless and has no support system in place.

They have the clothes on their backs.

Do they just walk into a job interview? You think they are going to get hired or escorted out of the building? How do they even know who is hiring? How do they get a resume together? Do they have a telephone? Address? Any of the documentation needed, like a social security card/ID to do all the paperwork?

Krystine, just to reiterate, I'm not trying to talk down to you or anything, I just see this stereotype perpetuated and it's really frustrating. Did you talk about this in school ever? Is this what they teach kids in school now?
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:41 pm

im ending this now.
If you really pay attention to the sob stories homeless people tell you, its just a load of crap.
They have the power to get help, they choose not to get it. Why? They dont want change, they don't want help, they want to live the same life they are living, OR are waiting for someone to come along and make everything better.
Its not an assumption, because if they really wanted to get their act together they'd do whatever it takes.
Jobs do pay under the table you know.
But hey, what do i know right?
Its all right in front of you, they want someone to make it all go away, they dont want to do it themselves.
Some get help, some are too adjusted to their way of life.
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:42 pm

krystineM wrote:
im ending this now.
If you really pay attention to the sob stories homeless people tell you, its just a load of crap.
They have the power to get help, they choose not to get it. Why? They dont want change, they don't want help, they want to live the same life they are living, OR are waiting for someone to come along and make everything better.
Its not an assumption, because if they really wanted to get their act together they'd do whatever it takes.

That's such bullshit, Krystine. Did you read anything posted on this thread?

krystineM wrote:
Jobs do pay under the table you know.
But hey, what do i know right?
Its all right in front of you, they want someone to make it all go away, they dont want to do it themselves.
Some get help, some are too adjusted to their way of life.

You propose homeless people get jobs that pay under the table? Oh, well, problem solved! Good job! Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:54 pm

hey if they want to give the guy or girl a break, im sure they could make an exception..
Im not saying it does happen. But there is a posibility, if someone comes across a nice boss, that they COULD do that.
Its not bullshit either. Its all hidden under what they say.
Doesn't happen all the time, sometimes there are other reasons as to WHY.
But from the stories i've heard from homeless, they have all the options in their face, they just dont want to make an effort. because, they are indeed, lazy.
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:04 am

That's fine, you can continue to live in your own version of "reality" and be a sheep like most of the American public. Baaaah!
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PostSubject: Re: Do Poor People Cause Their Own Poverty?   Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:31 am

Krystine, I like you a lot as a person, so keep that in mind as you read this post, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU PERSONALLY:

The sheer, unadulterated ignorance displayed in this thread by Krystine, is an example of what terrifies me about many teen parents. On one hand, Krystine is still a child in school, so she is not expected to know everything an adult knows about the real world, i.e. mental illness, homelessness, alcoholism, drug abuse, etc. So I am not shocked or appalled at what she has to say on these subjects given her age, etc.

On the other hand, she is about to become someone's mother, and in that light she should have at least as much knowledge as the average adult to to do that job adequately. Well she clearly doesn't have such knowledge, so that will be a detriment to her child from day one.


The bottom line is, I know many people get very defensive on the subject of teen parenthood, but you have to admit there are reasons why most of society thinks it is a bad idea.

DISCLAIMER FOR THE IGNORANT:

I did not say all teen parents are bads parents, and I did not say all adult parents are good. Get a fucking grip before you bitch about that.
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